The
House of Lords debated on 20 March 2001 the regulations that would prohibit
from 31 December 2009 the use of non-metric information. The debate is
reproduced here in full:
7.5
p.m.
Baroness Miller of Hendon rose to move:
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the
regulations, laid before the House on 17th January, be annulled (S.I. 2001/85).
The
noble Baroness said: My Lords, I move this Motion not because of any desire to
revert to bushels, pecks, rods, poles and perches, which I remind noble Lords
are known throughout the world as imperial measures, but for two reasons:
first, because there is absolutely no public or legal demand for it. A survey
in November 1997 showed that 74 per cent of the public find feet and inches,
pints, pounds and ounces most convenient for their everyday purchases. Most
importantly, it showed that 70 per cent of people would prefer a system of dual
labelling which would allow the consumer to choose the system which best suited
him or her. Tesco reverted to dual pricing because it found that nine out of 10
of its customers still used imperial measures in their heads.
Yet
the Government relentlessly pursue their determined drive to abolish those
familiar measurements. In my view, that is part of the Government's long-term
project to airbrush out our history, including the existence of the United
Kingdom, the traditions and status of Parliament itself, in both Houses, and
the reduction of England into petty regions in the style of French departements
and German Landes. The date of the survey that I have just mentioned is
significant. In 1989 the previous government obtained a 10-year derogation from
the EC directive permitting the sale of loose goods such as meat, fish,
vegetables and fruit in pounds and ounces. Despite the fact that the Government
had two clear years notice of public opinion before the derogation expired on
31st December 1999, they just allowed the date to go by default without lifting
so much as a finger to obtain an extension. That was clearly a deliberate
decision on the part of the Government.
In
reply to a Question for Written Answer from my honourable friend the Member for
Bognor Regis and Littlehampton in July 1999, which at least would have been a
reminder, if the Government amidst their so many other preoccupations had
overlooked it, the Minister for Competition and Consumer Affairs said: "The
Government have not discussed the derogation for goods sold loose with Members
of the European Commission" [Official Report, Commons, 8/7/99; col.583W]. The
result is that it is now illegal to sell bananas by the pound or for children
to buy 2 ounces of dolly mixture.
However, it is still permitted under EU law for the equivalent in
imperial measures to be shown as so-called "supplements" underneath the metric
marking. This is technically called in Eurospeak jargon "supplementary
indications" or "dual marking". The regulations that we are discussing today
are to put an end to even that dual marking on 31st December 2009. These
regulations sound the death knell for pounds and ounces in less than 10 years'
time. The question I have to ask is, why? The same question was raised by some
of my right honourable and honourable friends in the other place and answer
came there none. The only pathetically specious reply that the Minister could
dredge up was: "The directive is to establish harmonised use of the
international system of metric units for education, public health, public
safety and administrative services".
Before the Government side gets over-excited, it is true that the
previous government signed up to the directive. One was negotiated by the
Labour government in 1979 just before the Thatcher government came into office.
I shall, if I may, revert to that aspect in a few moments. I remind your
Lordships that we also negotiated the derogation which the Government have
deliberately allowed to expire, in the same way that my right honourable friend
the former Prime Minister established and negotiated the principle of
subsidiarity which the Government waive at every opportunity. The Minister in
the other place claimed that imperial measures had to disappear into history
because of, "public health and public safety", as if people would be fainting
in the aisles of Sainsbury's if they were confronted with a label quoting
prices in both kilos and pounds; as if an eleventh plague would be visited on
us if we were allowed to buy a pound of Cox's Orange Pippins.
Harmonisation is another excuse. Well, I can understand the
commercial need not to attempt to sell goods in pounds and ounces to countries
that have had the metric system for more than 200 years. But what principle of
harmony is breached if some market trader in Sunderland sells his customers
bananas by the pound? Even if overseas visitors patronise his store, or even
Safeway, surely they will not be insulted if they see a sign containing a
so-called "supplementary indication". If millions of British tourists -
The
Minister for Science, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Sainsbury of
Turville): My Lords, perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness a simple question.
The regulations that we are discussing simply allow the supplementary
indicators to be continued for another eight years. If we do not have them, we
will not have the use of supplementary indicators, which are wholly in the
consumer interest.
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, the Minister is not correct in
that. If we were to reject the regulations, consumers would gain, choice would
gain and the public would gain because we would be going back to what was in
place before the regulations were brought forward. Perhaps I may refer to some
of the regulations on the back of the instrument; for example, the Measuring
Equipment (Capacity Measures and Testing Equipment) Regulations 1995, with
which I am sure the Minister is well acquainted. The existing provisions allow
for the indefinite marking of gallons, pints, quarts or gills and fluid ounces
as a supplementary indication to litres and centilitres. The regulations
against which I am praying would insert a cut-off date of 31st December 2009.
However, if those were rejected, supplementary marking would still be allowed.
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: No.
Baroness Miller of Hendon: I am perfectly happy to discuss the matter
with the Minister after the debate but I have been advised very clearly that
supplementary marking would still be allowed. I believe that the Minister will
find that to be the case. Perhaps I may return to the point I was making. If
millions of tourists can cope with litres and kilos when they go on holiday and
adapt to driving on the wrong side of the road, I am sure that our visitors can
manage with dual pricing when they decide to buy a bag of oranges. In other
words, what business is it of Brussels or even of our own authoritarian
Government if my local corner shop and its satisfied customers do business? I
said a few moments ago that the previous government accepted the directive
subject to the derogation. But it was an earlier Labour government, in their
dying days in 1979, who negotiated the original directive which referred to,
"laws which regulate the use of measurement in the member states differ from
one member state to another...as a result hinder trade". Which member states
were being talked about? They were the United Kingdom and Eire. In what way do
imperial measures hinder trade? That ex cathedra statement is not based on the
slightest shred of fact or evidence.
Indeed, the United States of America has emphatically rejected
metrication. If we do not use imperial measures on, say, pots of our highly
prized jam, that will hinder trade, as manufacturers will have to run separate
production lines to produce different labels. My right honourable friend the
Member for Wells pointed out in the other place the difference in attitude to
regulation between the United Kingdom and the Continent. In France, everything
is permitted; in Germany, everything is forbidden unless it is permitted; in
the United Kingdom, everything is permitted unless it is forbidden. I had my
own experience of that in 1974 when I expanded my mail order business into
Germany. I had to negotiate a special licence with the German Post Office
because it did not allow one to put envelopes on the outside of packets, even
though that is done world-wide.
My
right honourable friend in the other place also asked why anyone needs
permission to display helpful information. In the hope that in the week that
has elapsed since that question was asked in the other place the Government
have had the time to think up an answer, I ask the Minister exactly the same
question. Indeed, I go further. By what right do the Government seek to censor
labels on supermarket shelves of pots of marmalade? If in a free country I
decide to put political slogans on my products, there is nothing to stop me,
much as this Government may dislike my doing that. I have no need to remind
your Lordships how Tate&Lyle comprehensively routed the government of the
1940s - perhaps it was the 1950s: I am not sure - with its brilliant "Mr Cube"
campaign opposing the government's plan to nationalise it. If, in exercising my
right of free speech, I can include on my jar of home-made pickles, which are
very good, a statement about class sizes or hospital waiting lists, or even on
the shelves of my shop, why do the Government believe that they are entitled to
prohibit me from saying that a kilo of onions costs 78p - equivalent to 35p a
pound?
The
Government have claimed that that causes confusion. Who does it confuse? The
customer can rely on which unit of measure and price he or she chooses. In real
life, unless one is among the fortunate few whose greengrocer still delivers -
whether it is Fortnum's or the very helpful corner shop - most people do not
even buy loose fruit by weight. They pick up six bananas or five apples and the
person at the check-out tells them what they cost. So why cannot the customer
see the price on the shelf in whatever units he or she is most comfortable
with? If we are going to discuss confusion, perhaps I may remind your Lordships
about the confusion that was caused by the last compulsory imposition, without
an adequate transition, of metrication on this country. We have just reached
the 30th anniversary of the overnight decimalisation of our currency. It was
done in a most confusing way. We did not adopt a 10-shilling unit, as was the
case in Australia and New Zealand. We stuck to the pound. I do not blame the
then Chancellor of the Exchequer - now the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan -
personally because he followed the advice that he was given at the time.
However, as a result, many people no longer understood what they were paying
for anything, when 17 shillings became 85p instead of 1.7 new pounds,
sovereigns, or whatever. Older people still have difficulty in relating decimal
coinage to the old prices, to real prices or to, as so many people call it,
real money. How many of your Lordships realise that your Evening Standard costs
you seven shillings and that it costs 5s 2½d to post a letter?
Conversion of petrol pumps to litre pricing only disguises the fact
that petrol is now more than £4 a gallon. In the case of metrication, we
are not just talking about older people. Tens of millions of our citizens have
grown up with pounds and ounces, pints and gallons. Millions of those who were
born before Harold Wilson invented the "white heat of technology" in 1963 and
introduced the now defunct Metrication Board during his 1964 administration
will, it is to be hoped, still be alive in 2009. But the Government are clearly
saying that those survivors of the pre-Wilson era will not be worth bothering
about in nine years' time. That is a clear act of age discrimination. While I
am talking about confusion--I assume that our benevolent Government want to
protect the public from being misled in some way by being given more
information than is thought good for them - have your Lordships thought about
the confusion that is caused by the change to metric quantities? Butter used to
be sold in half pound packets. Now it is sold in a 250 gram pack. But 250 grams
is nine ounces, so the supermarkets benefit from a 12½ per cent boost in
sales. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, is very well aware of
that.
Noble Lords: Oh!
Baroness Miller of Hendon: I think that he probably is. But as he
made a slight mistake previously about the effect of the regulations, perhaps
he is not. I do not know. On the other hand, the old standard 12 ounce -
three-quarters of a pound - pot of jam is now rounded down to 340 grams - just
one-eighth of an ounce less; not much less; just 1 per cent less jam today, my
Lords, but the public have not noticed. By what piece of bureaucratic nonsense
is it all right to inform the public that their pint of milk is equal to 568
millilitres but not that a bunch of grapes, at £2.99 a kilo, is
equivalent to £1.36 a pound? The regulations we are considering today go
beyond the requirements of the directive, which merely requires the use of a
uniform system of measurement; a directive from which the Government
deliberately and consciously lost our opt-out. The directive did not prohibit
dual pricing or supplementary marking, but, as is typical of this Government in
their dealings with the EU, they are adopting their usual submissive attitude
and gold-plating the directive. They have put in an eventual time-limit on dual
marking. That is the sole purpose of this regulation.
European Union firms that sell to the United States of America are
not permitted to sell only in metric measurements. Imperial marking is also
required. The EU has responded by graciously permitting even sellers of
pre-packed goods to use dual marking. As I have already mentioned, the EU has
taken this further and entirely logical step to prevent the uneconomic need for
two different production runs, one for Europe and the other for the United
States. Indeed, the EU permits dual marking on goods to be sold within the EU
and I understand that it extends that permission even to loose goods such as
bananas. However, the Government wish to prohibit that practice from 2009
onwards, but only for British businesses. Europeans will be permitted to sell
their goods in bushels, firkins or any other medieval measurement they may
choose, just so long as they also use metric measurements. Britain is to be
censored and prohibited by an increasingly despotic Government from doing so
after 2009.
Again, I shall ask the same, unanswered question, which I think is
amusing the Minister. I am glad that I have managed to amuse the noble Lord but
I hope that, when he thinks about it, he will realise that this is a serious
matter. I shall ask him the same question: why? What the regulation does is to
restrict freedom of expression for no reason or benefit whatsoever. If there is
no reason for it or benefit from it, I ask again: why? What have we or the EU
to fear from giving British shoppers the choice of how they want the goods they
buy to be priced and measured? Do we seriously expect shopkeepers to be
prosecuted for telling confused shoppers the weight of the goods in pounds and
ounces? Will the Minister, in all seriousness, tell noble Lords categorically,
here and now, that a Labour government would support such prosecutions?
Once in a while, a piece of nonsense crosses a Minister's desk,
although of course the Minister may see plenty of nonsense passing over his
desk. Some of those pieces of nonsense have nothing to do with the real world
but, occasionally, there is something that the Minister will be able to do
about it. I say this to the Minister: sometimes the pieces of nonsense that
pass across his desk do no more than provide work for a few bureaucratic,
regulation-loving officials. Advisers are there to advise; Ministers are there
to decide. In this case, I look to the Minister to stand up for himself and
decide that there is no compelling case for this piece of administrative
madness. This totally purposeless regulation should be revoked. To support that
proposition, I should like to reverse the question that I have asked several
times in the course of my remarks. I shall quote my personal motto, which
reflects my personal philosophy. When I meet an illogical piece of obstinacy, I
then say: quare non - and why not?
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying
that the regulations, laid before the House on 17th January, be annulled (S.I.
2001/85) (Baroness Miller of Hendon.)
Lord Shore of Stepney: My Lords, I shall intervene only briefly
because the matter has been covered more than adequately in the speech of the
noble Baroness. I am not quite sure what is the correct emotion to demonstrate:
should we laugh in scorn at this matter, or should we feel gusts of anger at
the humiliation inflicted upon our Parliament by the Brussels authorities, for
that is what it is? First, using a single sentence, I shall try to put this
matter into perspective. No one in possession of their senses would have any
objection to the adoption of a metric system where it is in the interests of
Britain to do so. Many of our traders who conduct most of their business with
the Continent find it convenient to use metric units. Those who export
primarily to the dollar areas do not, because the recipients of their goods are
familiar with imperial units. Common sense rules what decisions are made. So
far as concerns the ordinary consumer, it is only a matter of what is most
convenient; namely, what each consumer is most familiar with. There can be no
justification at all, in terms of public demand, for getting rid of our
traditional system of weights and measures.
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble
friend for giving way. I do not wish to prevent noble Lords expressing their
views about the metric system or their anti-European sentiments; it is
obviously very therapeutic. I point out again that these extremely limited
regulations simply extend for up to a further eight years the period during
which pricing using both imperial and metric units can take place. That is all
that the regulations will do. Obviously, people have views on metric
measurements, but tonight we are debating only that one simple proposition.
Lord Shore of Stepney: My Lords, with respect, the regulations do not
simply reiterate the status quo. We are now envisaging for the first time the
total suppression of imperial units by a given date - admittedly on 31st
December 2009. Why on earth we should have anything to do with the year 2009 is
beyond me, unless the Government wish to be provocative.
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, I must insist: a previous EU
directive brought all supplementary indicators to an end in 1999. The
regulation before the House extends the period during which such indicators can
be used for a further 10 years. We have negotiated this extension. If we had
not done that, the use of supplementary indicators would have stopped in 1999.
Lord Shore of Stepney: My Lords, if the regulations simply extend the
status quo and merely gives us a terminal date, we should have taken the
opportunity to renegotiate the matter so as to escape from the ludicrous
provision we are already saddled with. Perhaps I may put one or two questions
to my noble friend, because they will help to clarify the point. I understand
the present situation to be that, in this country, it is unlawful to sell units
of goods using imperial measurements. What we are allowed to do - the Minister
should blush with shame at this, as should we all - is to display our
traditional units as "supplementary indicators". The term "supplementary
indicator" has yet to be fully described or defined. However, I gather that the
imperial weights and measures must be less prominently displayed than the
metric units. To sell using only those "supplementary indicators" is unlawful;
it is unlawful today. As noble Lords know, we are presently awaiting the result
of a test case where a Sunderland greengrocer, whose name is Steven Thoburn,
sold a pound of bananas as a pound of bananas in his shop in Sunderland. What
have they done? They have confiscated his scales and, because he persists in
refusing to use metric measurements, they are now trying to inflict further
punishments. Perhaps I may ask the Minister what are the maximum punishments
under the present regime. Are there prison sentences and fines? We might as
well have the details put on the record.
The
Earl of Onslow: My Lords, perhaps they have the galleys.
Lord Shore of Stepney: My Lords, we can make a joke about this, but I
am concerned with far more important matters here than whether one can buy and
sell bananas by the pound. Greater issues are at stake here. This case
illustrates what is happening. What is meant by the loss of self-government is
that unelected bureaucrats tell the citizens of this country what they can and
cannot do, when what they are doing has no relevance at all to the European
Union. It is an invasion of freedom. In my view, this House and the other
place, which is debating this matter tomorrow, should be up in arms and refuse
to re-enact these regulations, thereby giving notice to the authorities in
Brussels that we will not stand it any longer.
7.30 p.m.
Lord Taverne: My Lords, I oppose this Motion. I cannot believe that
the noble Baroness will wish to press it because she is far too sensible. The
technicalities will be explained by the Minister; I wish to make some general
remarks. First, it is not very sensible to have dual systems. It is no more
sensible to continue to show pounds and ounces than it would be to have figures
showing pounds, shillings and pence, as in some ways the noble Baroness
suggested. Secondly, it does not have very much to do with the bureaucrats of
Brussels. Metrication has an interesting ancestry. There was a unanimous
recommendation by a Select Committee of the House of Commons that metrication
should be instituted in 1862, which, as I far as I remember, was somewhat
earlier than the founding of the Common Market. The Metrication Board was set
up to promote metrication in this country. It was recommended in 1968 by that
well-known Europhile, that lackey of Brussels, Mr Douglas Jay. He was backed in
this by that other Europhile, Mr Anthony Benn. Metrication was introduced into
our schools by the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher. This is not a gigantic plot.
Every other country in the world has gone metric. Every Commonwealth country
has completed metrication. Is that because they are dominated by the
bureaucrats of Brussels? What on earth is the noble Lord, Lord Shore, talking
about? It was magnificent Churchillian rhetoric, full of sound and fury, but
signified nothing. These changeovers sometimes cause a fuss. It would have been
much easier if we had kept the Metrication Board.
I
remember decimalisation because I was the Minister in charge of decimalisation
in 1968. I remember the great "Save the Sixpence" campaign. The sixpence was
given, rather weakly, by the then Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, a reprieve for
a certain time. It was meaningless because a sixpence--a 2½p coin--had
no place in a metric system, and the 2½p coin duly disappeared. This
really is a great deal of nonsense about nothing. It is a pity that the
Decimalisation Board, which did a great job, was not followed in due course by
the Metrication Board, which, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe,
explained, was abolished, I think by him, as one of the first acts of the new
government. He rather regrets that it was done. The Decimalisation Board was a
great success. If the Metrication Board had been, the fuss might be somewhat
limited. Do not let us pretend that this is a great story about domination by
Brussels. That has nothing to do with it. Why should all Commonwealth countries
have adopted metrication? Why should the United States be adopting it as well?
The
Earl of Onslow: My Lords, perhaps I may bring the attention of the noble Lord,
Lord Taverne, back to the issue. It is not a question of whether or not we
should adopt metrication; it is whether it should be a criminal offence for
someone, after 2009, to display his produce in pounds and ounces as well as in
kilos. No one is saying that we should not display in kilos, but we should be
able to display in both. That is all that the issue is about. Some say it will
die out - it probably will - but why do we buy from the fishmonger in Barfleur,
the fish market, "les huitres: le livre". After all, the French invented
metrication and they still use their old bourbon levels of measurement in some
markets - they do in the vegetable market in Carcassonne - but they do not get
sent to the guillotine or the Temple prison in Paris. I regret to say that
governments of both parties have been prone towards the intolerable habit of
over-regulating. There is no need to ban it. When people do not want it, it
will die like the sixpence. The difference is fundamental; it is not an
attitude of anti-metrication but one of live and let live. I thought - I may be
wrong; I am being proved wrong - that the Liberal Democrats believed in that.
They obviously do not at the moment. They say, "Let's boss people about". The
noble Lord, Lord Phillips, may split the Liberal Democrat Front Bench, I do not
know, but that is the issue. I pride myself on being what can be called a
"xenophiliac". I rather dislike the way that Brussels governs us, and the two
are not mutually exclusive. That is why we should be able to love the pound and
love kilos and not send people to the galleys, the guillotine, the Temple or
fine them two thousand quid.
Lord Howe of Aberavon: My Lords, I am sorry that I was not here for
the opening moments of my noble friend's eloquent and emotional speech. It was
effective in its way, as always. It matched in emotional content the speech of
my old sparring partner, the noble Lord, Lord Shore. However, as a former
Minister for metrication - if I may get that on the record - I find the
existence of this debate, with its hugely generated emotions, in itself a very
sad commentary on the lack of skill and, quite frankly, the lack of candour
with which we have set about the metrication process. It is a very distressing
state of affairs. I say "we" because all parties have connived in quiescence
and a lack of candour. We have never secured a statutory endorsement by
Parliament, which was a mistake. Even as I see the smile on the face of the
noble Lord, Lord Taverne, I say "we" because his party colleague, the Member
for Weston-Super-Mare, Mr Brian Cotter, has made speeches of matching eloquent
emotionalism to the ones we have already heard.
So
it is an all-party shambles. The myths which underlie the shambles are, first -
this has been dealt with already - that this is the fruit of some hideous alien
imposition. It is true that it was the French revolutionaries who first started
designing the metric system. They had the courtesy, rather remarkably, to ask
the then British government to attend consultations about how to do it. With a
better excuse in those days than in the present circumstances, the British
Government declined the offer. The noble Lord, Lord Taverne, is right that in
1862 a unanimous Select Committee of the Commons recommended metrication
because, in its view, no country - especially no commercial country - should
fail to adopt the metric system, which would save time and lessen labour. Nine
years later, by five votes only, the House of Commons failed to endorse
metrication and decimalisation simultaneously. Decimalisation then would have
cost trade £3 million; decimalisation 100 years later in 1971 - a long
delay even for this country - cost £300 million. That is one of the
prices we have paid for it. Successively, the Hodgson committee appointed by
Lord Attlee unanimously recommended metrication in our national interests; the
Metrication Board was set up in our national interests; and in 1972 we started
teaching our children in metric measures in our national interests.
While I was waiting for the debate to begin I was talking to an old
friend of mine in Port Talbot, a retired primary school headmistress. I
mentioned what we were about to embark upon, and she said how upset she had
been when she had taught all the children going through her primary school in
metric measures, as she was led to understand was necessary, and found that
when they moved on to their secondary schools they were back to imperial
measures again. That is no way to run a country. It is wrong to believe that
this is an alien imposition; it is wrong to believe that it is intrinsically
bad; it is, above all, wrong to believe that we can continue indefinitely
living in a twilight world with both systems having a kind of equal parity. If
we were the first Commonwealth country to embark on metrication and are now the
only one not to have completed it, does not that lead one to question why we
alone have to have this extraordinarily emotional excitement?
It
is partly because we have allowed the thing to come among us now in European
dress. In 1972, when the Heath government published the metrication White
Paper, even that was published before we joined the European Community. We have
made the mistake of relying upon that background instead of saying, "Look,
guys, this is for us" to the British people. Canada, Kenya, South Africa,
Australia and New Zealand have done it. New Zealand started it in 1972 and
finished it in 1977. If you do it with a properly designed, sustained educative
process, you do not need to contemplate prosecution. My noble friend was right
to refer to the use of the livre on the French coast. I have bought a livre of
moules marinieres in Barfleur. But the livre is a residual designation of a
demi-kilo. There would be confusion unless we got it clear in this country that
the pound, if we wanted to go on using it, was now to be understood as meaning
500 grams or half a kilo. The tragedy is that we have not carried this process
through in a sensible, systematic fashion. That is something of which we all
ought to be collectively ashamed. To have successive governments saying that
this is the way we are going, introducing measures to achieve it and letting
the schools embark upon it, and successive oppositions remaining hugely excited
about it, is not the way to run an adult democracy. I am very sad that that we
still find ourselves in that age. I grieve deeply that, not just my honourable
friends - with whom I am very friendly - but the noble Lord, Lord Shore, with
whom I am normally on very good personal terms, as I am indeed now, and I
should find ourselves divided in this extraordinary fashion at the beginning of
the 21st century over a system that we ought to have adopted in the middle of
the 19th century.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, was
correct in one of his remarks and incorrect in another. I am not, and am not
likely to be, a Front Bench spokesman for this party. That is partly because I
do not intend to speak up for my noble friend Lord Taverne on this occasion. I
do not believe that this debate is "much ado about nothing". The noble and
learned Lord, Lord Howe, and my noble friend Lord Taverne are too rational
about the issues involved. Little things sometimes mean a lot to "little
people", as Dickens called them. We need to understand about the European
Union. I make no bones about the fact that I am a complete supporter of our
membership of the European Union. But people need to understand that the public
in this country are not in love with the EU. They find it bureaucratic,
distant, impersonal and arrogant. I believe that the way in which this whole
question of measurement has been dealt with is a classic example of just that -
as well as, I concede, a failure on our part to be sensible in the way in which
we have dealt with education. People feel put upon by bureaucratic busybodies
and, frankly, they feel put upon by us. This is a good example of how we often
fail in our duty. I say to the Minister that it is true that we are talking
about a derogation for 10 years. But what those of us who are in favour of the
Motion disagree with is the guillotine that will come down at the end of 2009
and which will make illegal thereafter any use of alternative, supplementary or
additional measurements. That is what I disagree with; and I believe that the
House should have disagreed with the previous derogation Motion.
Let
us consider what we are dealing with. In Halsbury's Statutes there are 175
pages dealing with weights and measures. The Weights and Measures Act 1985 has
122 pages; and 28 EC Council directives dealing with weights and measures are
still in force. The directives have been amended many times. Let us take, for
example, the directive dated 15th January 1980 on, "Ranges of Nominal
Quantities and Nominal Capacities Permitted for Certain Pre-packed Products" -
a snappy little title! We find that the EC Council directive of 1980 was
amended by another directive in 1985, another in 1989 - the occasion giving
rise to the matter with which we are dealing, when, I believe I am right in
thinking, Douglas Hurd and Francis Maude were present at the Council which
approved the directive from which this comes. Then there were the Units of
Measurement Regulations 1986. Those regulations have since been amended on
several occasions: three times in 1994, and again in 1995. Trying to get to the
bottom of this matter is a nightmare; and that in itself tells us something
that we need to hear. My point is a simple one. On 1st January 2010, it will
become a criminal offence for any small trader, shopkeeper or market stall
holder to have additional measurements along with the metric measurements
relating to any goods for sale. If someone goes up to a small shopkeeper or
trader on 1st January 2010 and asks for a pound of apples, the trader will be
committing a criminal offence if he supplies them. That is like something out
of Alice in Wonderland. It is a nonsense. Above all, it is completely
unnecessary. I have studiously tried to understand this, and there is no single
justification for such criminalisation. No one is damaged by allowing the
supplementary measurements; no great principle of European trade is traversed
by allowing them. Indeed, if one is talking about damage, surely the damage is
to the many, many consumers who will understand only our traditional
measurements. Let us not forget that the latest survey indicates that 93 per
cent of the population prefer to deal in traditional measurements. I believe
that we shall find that anyone who is over the age of 40 will in 10 years' time
be completely lost if he or she has no alternative indicators. Only bottles of
milk and pints of beer and cider will then be allowed in traditional
measurements.
My
point is that there is a basic libertarian issue here. It is easy for some to
say that it does not matter, that it is silly. My noble friend Lord Taverne
said that it is not sensible. We are not dealing with sense; we are dealing
with choice, and with the right of people to express themselves as they think
fit. Measurements are a mode of expression like anything else. It is easy for
this House to fall into the managerial attitudes that are now so prevalent, but
it is dangerous. It is dangerous because it alienates the very people whom we
as a Parliament ought to be setting out to woo. Those of us who do not want the
backlash against the European Union to gather force to the point where the time
may come when a party will go to the public seeking withdrawal from the
European Union need to understand what people resent and why they resent it.
Unless there is a good reason for making it a criminal offence on 1st January
2010 for people to supply goods in alternative measurements - I do not believe
that there is one - we damage the cause of the European Union. For that reason,
I am strongly against the criminality provision that will come into force at
the end of the 10-year period.
7.45 p.m.
Lord Richard: My Lords, I assure the House that I shall be brief. I
am slightly mystified by this debate. Frankly, I did not intend listening to
it, but I was told that it was a matter of some importance and of some
constitutional note, so I came into the Chamber. I was greeted with what I had,
frankly, slightly expected. I heard a speech from the noble Baroness, Lady
Miller, which was passionate - certainly that came across. There was an
argument there, although, if I may respectfully say so, one had to dig for it a
little in order to try to decipher it. I heard the speech of my noble friend
Lord Shore, which was Churchillian in its tone and which seemed to elevate what
is, after all, a fairly small issue into Trafalgar, Waterloo, Dunkirk, the
beaches: "We must stand and defy these terrible people who somehow or other are
going to eat into our liberties". Then we heard the noble Earl, Lord Onslow. I
told the noble Earl earlier, and I shall repeat my remark to the House, that I
have begun noting the length of time that it takes him to get to his feet from
when he first comes through the door into the Chamber. That interval is getting
shorter -
The
Earl of Onslow: My Lords -
Lord Richard: No, my Lords. Perhaps I may, first, amuse the noble
Lord before he decides that he must respond. We have had the benefit of the
noble Earl's contributions on two occasions today in what is probably his first
appearance for some time. I hope that the noble Earl comes to the House more
often. When he comes, he is entertaining; indeed, we all enjoy seeing him. Some
of us enjoy listening to him, as long as he does not go on for too long. We
have, again, heard this great libertarian issue. Does the noble Earl wish to
intervene now?
The
Earl of Onslow: My Lords, my only slight defence was that I did arrive slightly
late for the Question on fishing that was dealt with earlier today. The noble
Lord is right to say that I was fairly sharpish off my feet at that time.
However, on this occasion I had made a plan; namely, to arrive, to listen to
the opening speech and to the other speakers, and then to intervene with what I
hoped would be a constructive and libertarian contribution. The noble Lord may
not agree with what I said, but then he is excellent at not agreeing; indeed,
he is excellent at showing disdain of a rather patrician kind, which we all
have known and have grown to love. But at least three of us can play this game.
Lord Richard: My Lords, I am bound to say that to be accused by the
noble Earl, Lord Onslow, of being patrician seems to me to be a somewhat
astonishing proposition even at this hour of the night, and on this particular
issue. We also heard from the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, who said that this is
a basic libertarian issue. That was greeted by a chorus of "Hear, hear!" from
those on the other side of the Chamber. This is not a libertarian issue. The
noble Lord said how terrible it will be when this becomes a criminal offence on
1st January 2010. That prospect seems to appal the other side. It is a very
strange way to be appalled: they are appalled by a criminal offence coming into
being on 1st January 2010, yet they seem to want it to come into being on 1st
January 2001. With respect, that is precisely what will happen if this
derogation is not granted.
Noble Lords: Oh!
Lord Richard: My Lords, I urge noble Lords opposite to try to follow
the argument. That is being a bit patrician! Indeed, it could have come from
the lips of the noble Earl, Lord Onslow. It is going to be a criminal offence
on 1st January 2010 if the derogation goes through. However, as I understand
it, if it does not go through it will become a criminal offence at the period
of time when the derogation should have come into practice, but did not -
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord
for giving way. I call upon his vastly superior experience to mine and ask him
how he would contend with the position in which we now find ourselves if we
feel strongly that criminalising the sale by alternative indications in 2010 is
wrong?
Lord Richard: My Lords, I do quite know how I should deal with the
present situation, except perhaps to recognise it. The previous government and
the previous Labour government - but especially the previous government under
the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher - accepted the principles of metrication for
the United Kingdom. We are talking about the process of how that metrication is
introduced. As I understand it, the previous government managed to get a
derogation for 10 years. The effect of these regulations will be to give a
further derogation for 10 years. So we are debating a 20-odd year period,
within which metrication is being introduced into the United Kingdom. That is
no position from which to start tearing a passion to tatters, as we have heard
tonight. The House would be well advised to listen to the rather wise words of
the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon. I believe that he got it
absolutely right: this is something that should have been done a very long time
ago. However, it was not done and now should be.
Lord Monson: My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Miller,
wholeheartedly - and not for the first time. We have heard one illiberal speech
from the Liberal Democrat Benches, though not by any means for the first time,
which was more than balanced by an excellent and highly liberal speech from the
noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, as is his wont. I should point out to the
noble Lord, Lord Richard, and other supporters of the Government that all law -
in particular, a new criminal law - any breach of which may result in an
individual being fined or sent to prison, should have some moral basis. That
applies whether a law affects 10 million or only two dozen people. Similarly,
it does not matter what date it comes into effect. Unless it rests on a moral
foundation, it is likely to be arbitrary and, most probably, also tyrannical.
Where is the actual morality in outlawing dual marking? Is there anyone in the
entire world who would be harmed in the slightest degree if these regulations
were rejected? The answer is surely no. Is there any popular demand across the
European continent for these regulations; for example, are the Greeks and the
Belgians demonstrating in the streets, rioting and insisting that dual marking
be outlawed in the United Kingdom? That is certainly not the case. Would the
handful of zealots in the European Commission and among the EU bureaucracy
really lose any sleep at all if the regulations were rejected? Even here, I
suspect not.
Above all, it is the europhiles and euro-enthusiasts, like the noble
and learned Lord, Lord Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Richard, who should be
worried by these regulations. As the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, suggested,
nothing is more likely to provoke the British people into hating the EU, and
all its works, than this sort of arrogant and unnecessary interference in our
purely internal affairs. On a technical point - here I declare an interest as a
patron of the British Weights and Measures Association - it is worth pointing
out that bicycle wheels all over the world, including the whole continent of
Europe, are measured not in millimetres or even centimetres but in inches. If
the regulations go through, we could end up in the year 2010 as the only
country in the EU where sellers are forced to advertise bicycle wheel
measurements in millimetres, while France, Germany, Italy, and so on, remain
free to advertise them in inches. As a number of noble Lords have pointed out,
there are also other examples of continuing Continental use of imperial
measurements. I hope, therefore, that the House will reject these regulations
as we are now - thank goodness! - fully entitled to do.
Lord Blackwell: My Lords, I listened with some interest to those
noble Lords who have spoken in favour of these regulations. I listened in
particular to my noble and learned friend Lord Howe. So far, I have to say that
the arguments fall with my noble friend Lady Miller. As other speakers have
said, I cannot see what is to be gained by removing the right of consumers to
choose how they buy goods. It is not a question of being for or against Europe,
and it is not even a question of being for or against metrication: it is simply
a question of being for choice and liberty. It is certainly true that we must
have a legal form of measures and that we have chosen to have the metric system
in this country. However, what is generally missed is the fact that any two
measurement systems have, by necessity, an exact conversion. It is not a
question of using one measurement system to try to short-change the public by
using short pints or bent rulers. It is not a question of fraud: one measure is
exactly the same as the other. It is just expressed through a conversion
factor. A certain quantity of produce will cost exactly the same in pounds and
pence whether it is measured by one metric system or, indeed, by old imperial
measurements.
As
far as concerns the public, there is nothing to be gained. The regulatory
assessment that was issued with these regulations says that there is no cost
involved in extending dual marking to 2009. If no cost is involved in extending
dual marking to that date, it seems to me that there is no cost in extending it
in perpetuity. However, there is a cost involved in bringing dual marking to an
end. In economic terms, we know to our cost that any regulation introduced in
this country is enforced. As the noble Lord, Lord Shore, pointed out, people
will be travelling around the country enforcing the regulation and will be
incurring costs in the process, as well as imposing costs on those on whom they
attempt to enforce it. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, pointed out,
there is a more important cost involved; namely, a cost as regards liberty.
There ought to be a bias in this country that a strong benefit must be derived
from introducing a regulation, or reducing a freedom, before it is implemented.
I cannot see any benefit coming from the implementation of this regulation. It
will reduce consumer choice and force people to adopt only one source of
information.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving
way, but there is a further cost and that is that on 1st January 2010 everyone
will have to throw away their existing scales because it will be a criminal
offence from that date to have scales that have both traditional and metric
measurements.
Lord Blackwell: My Lords, I accept that point. It occurs to me that
there is no calculation in the regulatory assessment we have been given of the
cost of introducing this terminal date for dual marking. Does the Minister
advocate a date on which dual marking should be abolished? If we had free
choice in the matter, would he have advocated it in 1999? Does he advocate that
in 2009 as a positive measure? If he believes that the prayer of the noble
Baroness, Lady Miller of Hendon, is not an appropriate way of getting ourselves
out of this "box", what can the Government can do to extend - as it appears
that the majority of noble Lords here would like to do - dual marking in
perpetuity? What do we have to do to achieve that? Will the Government bring
forward whatever measures are necessary to support that intent?
Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, I give an example which I hope
may be helpful to your Lordships to demonstrate why this matter is so
infuriating to those of us who support the Motion of the noble Baroness, Lady
Miller of Hendon. It is all about subsidiarity. It is a living example of
subsidiarity in your Lordships' House. I enjoy going to the Refreshment
Department to order my steak for lunch and dinner. Only comparatively recently,
to my horror, I found that the steak was described as weighing 200 grams. In
most London restaurants the steaks are described as weighing eight ounces. We
all know what an eight ounce steak is; it is an edible size of steak. We can
picture an eight ounce steak in our mind when we order it. But for some reason
it is now described as weighing 200 grams. Who has any idea what a 200 gram
steak looks like? I took the liberty of writing to my noble friend Lord Colwyn
who is chairman of the Refreshment Sub-Committee. Sadly, he is not present at
the moment. However, I saw him coming in so perhaps he will read Hansard. I
asked him why it was necessary to have the steak uniquely described in grams.
Like other noble Lords, I have no objection to dual marking but we do not have
the choice. The figure is given just as 200 grams, whatever that may mean. I
did not receive a satisfactory answer from my noble friend Lord Colwyn.
Therefore I wrote - I shall not say higher up as one can hardly get higher than
the chairman of the Refreshment Sub-Committee - to Mr Edward Ollard. He
informed me that it was a requirement that purchases should be conducted in
metric measures and that that was far more convenient for what the noble Lord,
Lord Phillips, called the managerial mindset. That may be the case for people
buying in metric measures. But why cannot we have both measures? Why cannot we
have eight ounces? If a product happens to be 233 grams, it can be marked eight
ounces or 233 grams. Why is it just marked 200 grams? Incidentally--
Lord Richard: My Lords, does the noble Lord feel the same about a
bottle of claret, which we all know is 75 centilitres? There is no choice
whatsoever there. The noble Lord has to accept that measurement.
The
Earl of Onslow: My Lords, before my noble friend replies, Berry Brothers used
to sell a very convenient pint bottle of claret which was exactly the right
amount one wanted until it was forced to sell it only in 75 centilitre bottles.
That applies also to imperial pints of champagne and imperial pints of claret,
which were exactly the right amount.
Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble
friend Lord Onslow. I hope that that answers the point made by the noble Lord,
Lord Richard. I do not want to intervene in the cross-Floor repartee. What I
tried to explain before the noble Lord, Lord Richard, intervened is that 200
grams is seven ounces or 7.133 ounces. Noble Lords may not know it but they are
being short-changed. When they buy a 200 gram steak and they think that they
are getting an eight ounce steak they are not, they are getting a seven ounce
steak. All I am saying is that surely we could have a choice in this matter. I
wonder whether the usual channels could persuade the Refreshment Department to
rethink the matter so we could have marked 200 grams or 231 grams and eight
ounces. That is a living example of why this regulation is so absurd. If my
noble friend divides the House, I shall support her.
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to
explain the regulations. I have been longing to explain them because they are
simple and they do not need a debate on all the fundamental issues. I remind
the House that since 1965 all governments have supported the change to the
metric system on a gradual basis and for an ever increasing range of uses
because of the global move to metric. The main directives were adopted in 1976
by a Labour government and in 1980 and 1989 by Conservative governments. The
1989 directive set 31st December 1999 as the date after which grams and
kilograms must be used to sell loose goods by weight, mainly fresh foods such
as meat, fruit and vegetables. The implementing legislation, which has been
challenged in the Sunderland case, was made in 1994. If we are to play the
cards of libertarianism and British history, I remind the House that in Magna
Carta for the first time the people of Britain established the case and the
need for a single form of measurement in the country. With a general election
coming up it is no time for the Conservative Party to line up behind King John
on the ground that somehow having a series of weights and measures is a good
thing. I say that by way of background.
I
now take noble Lords through the regulations that we are debating. The
regulations I am discussing are those listed in the schedule to the present
regulations and in Regulation 3(2). The regulations set out constructional
requirements and limits of error for different classes of weighing or measuring
equipment. They also include the option for the equipment to display the
quantity weighed or measured by means of a supplementary indication in imperial
units. The regulations serve to implement, in respect of the listed equipment,
the provisions on supplementary indications in Directive 1999/103/EC, which
amends European Community Directive 80/181/EC on units of measurement.
Directive 80/181/EC originally set 31st December 1989 as the period after which
non-metric units were no longer authorised for use as supplementary indications
alongside metric units on measuring equipment or for other purposes such as the
quantity mark on packaging or the unit price of goods. In 1989 the directive
was amended to extend the period for supplementary indications until 31st
December 1999. The new deadline--and the other amendments to the
directive--were debated on the Floor of another place in 1989.
The
present Government have now negotiated a further 10-year extension for
supplementary indications for two reasons. First, under legislation made in
1994, goods sold loose by weight were required to be sold in grams and
kilograms after 1999. It was clear that consumers would welcome a further
10-year period during which trade weighing machines could display indications
in both metric and imperial weights. Secondly, under US legislation, consumer
packages--including imports from the UK and other EU member states--must be
labelled in metric and US imperial units. Packing in metric only for the EU
market and in metric/US imperial for the US market would clearly add to the
costs for UK exporters. It was again clear that there was benefit in extending
the period for supplementary indications by a further 10 years. It is also
important to recognise that the amending directive was passed by the European
Parliament. If UK MEPs had considered that the 10-year extension period was not
adequate, they could have tabled an amendment; and they did not do so. Perhaps
I may say to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, that it would be open to a future
government to seek a further extension if in 2009 there were an indication that
a further extension was needed. It seems wholly perverse, therefore, for the
House to turn down regulations which extend the period during which
supplementary indications can be used, the provision of which is wholly in the
interests of consumers. The regulations extend the period in which
supplementary indications can be given for another 10 years. I cannot see what
is to be gained for the consumer by turning that down. If people still want
supplementary indications in 2009, it will be open to the government at the
time to seek to extend them for a further period.
Perhaps I may respond to points made during the debate. Since 1st
January 2000 it has been unlawful to use imperial units only. That was as a
result of legislation passed in 1994, and debated at the time in the House of
Lords. My noble friend Lord Shore asked about maximum punishments. The maximum
punishment is £1,000 and/or confiscation of the weighing machine. The
consumer can ask for goods in imperial measures. The metric equivalent can be
weighed out now and after 2009. The libertarian argument fails to recognise
that one of the oldest functions of government is to define the legal units of
measurement. Just as all governments have always had a monopoly on issuing
notes and coins, if there was no legal definition one man's pound or kilo would
differ from the next's. I come back to this point. These are simple
regulations. They act entirely in favour of the consumer by extending the
period for 10 years. It is not appropriate again to raise the whole question of
metrication. Both governments have supported metrication consistently for a
long period. It is sensible to extend the measure for a further eight years.
If, after that period, there is a wish to do so, it is up to the government of
the day to seek a further extension.
Lord Monson: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, does he agree
that the reason why governments have the power to regulate weights and measures
is to prevent the consumer from being confused or cheated? That is exactly what
we do by allowing the use of dual measurements.
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, while in the short term it is
clearly sensible to allow supplementary indications, as a general principle it
is a good idea to have one unit of measurement and to stick to it.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister's
indulgence before he sits down. At the end of his speech I believe the Minister
said that if a trader or shopkeeper is asked for goods in traditional weights
after 2009, it will be possible for him to supply them. However, the shopkeeper
will not then be able to use scales or a weighing machine with traditional
measurements. Therefore, that will be impossible.
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, the consumer can ask for goods
and they can be weighed out in those measurements, but the shopkeeper would
have to do that on a metric machine and make the conversion.
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, I do not want to tire the House;
we have heard so much. However, when I spoke, the Minister intervened to
explain that if I divided the House and won annulment of the regulations, we
could not even now have the use of supplementary indicators. On the advice that
I have been given, that is not so. If that were so, I would not ask the House
to annul this regulation. We on this side of the House are looking for choice;
I am glad that many others have joined us on this issue. I mentioned the
Measuring Equipment (Capacity Measures and Testing Equipment) Regulations. I
shall not do so again. However, the Minister continues to say that the
regulations are sensible. I wish to ensure that noble Lords understand the
position. In the schedule there is reference to nine different regulations. The
eighth paragraph refers to the Measuring Equipment (Liquid Fuel and Lubricants)
Regulations. If the measure were annulled, one comes back to what that
regulation states. The fourth point of that regulation states that any
indication on measuring equipment referring in metric units of measurement to
the quantity of liquid fuel supplied may be accompanied by a supplementary
indication. That reflects the strong advice that I received today from a
colleague who visited the Library, and from my honourable friends in another
place. We could annul the regulation. The Minister did well in his response. He
tried hard, but his arguments are not good enough. I wish to test the opinion
of the House.
8.16 p.m.
On
Question, Whether the said Motion shall be agreed to? Their Lordships divided:
Contents, 76; Not-Contents, 115.
CONTENTS Allenby of Megiddo, V. Astor, V. Astor of Hever, L. Attlee,
E. Barber, L. Blackwell, L. Blaker, L. Blatch, B. Boardman, L. Brabazon of
Tara, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Burnham, L [Teller] Buscombe, B. Byford, B.
Caithness, E. Carlisle of Bucklow, L. Colwyn, L. Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cumberlege, B. Dean of Harptree, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L. Ferrers, E. Fookes, B. Glenarthur, L. Glentoran, L. Greenway, L.
Hanham, B Harris of Peckham, L. Hayhoe, L. Henley, L. [Teller] Hodgson of
Astley Abbotts, L. Hooper, B. Howe, E. Islwyn, L. Jenkin of Roding, L. Jopling,
L. Kelvedon, L. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Lindsay, E. Lucas, L. Luke, L. Lyell, L.
Mancroft, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Miller of Hendon, B. Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L. Montrose, D. Noakes, B. Northbrook, L. Northesk, E. Norton of Louth,
L. O'Cathain, B. Onslow, E. Palmer, L. Park of Monmouth, B. Peyton of Yeovil,
L. Rawlings, B. Renton, L. Rotherwick, L. Seccombe, B. Sharples, B. Shore of
Stepney, L. Slim, V. Stodart of Leaston, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L. Thomas of Gwydir, L. Vinson, L. Vivian, L. Waddington, L. Wade
of Chorlton, L. Willoughby de Broke, L. Windlesham, L.
NOT-CONTENTS Acton, L. Addington, L. Alderdice, L. Alli, L. Amos, B.
Andrews. B. Archer of Sandwell, L. Ashton of Upholland, B. Bach, L. Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L. Bernstein of Craigweil, L. Borrie, L. Bragg, L. Brooke
of Alverthorpe, L. Brookman, L. Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Burlison, L. Carter, L.
[Teller] Clarke of Hampstead, L. Clement-Jones, L. Clinton-Davis, L. Cocks of
Hartcliffe, L. Cohen of Pimlico, B. Currie of Marylebone, L. Darcy de Knayth,
B. David, B. Davies of Coity, L. Davies of Oldham, L. Dixon, L. Dubs, L. Evans
of Parkside, L. Evans of Temple Guiting, L. Evans of Watford, L. Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L. Fyfe of Fairfield, L. Gale, B. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Gilbert,
L. Gladwin of Clee, L. Goldsmith, L. Gould of Potternewton, B. Graham of
Edmonton, L. Greengross, B. Grenfell, L. Hamwee, B. Hardy of Wath, L. Harris of
Haringey, L. Harris of Richmond, B. Harrison, L. Hayman, B. Hilton of Eggardon,
B. Hollis of Heigham, B. Howells of St Davids, B. Howie of Troon, L. Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L. Hunt of Chesterton, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Jeger, B.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B. King of West Bromwich, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Lipsey,
L. Lockwood, B. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L. McNally, L. Mar and
Kellie, E. Masham of Ilton, B. Massey of Darwen, B. Mitchell, L. Northover, B.
Parekh, L. Peston, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. [Teller] Rea, L. Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B. Rennard, L Renwick of Clifton, L. Richard, L. Rodgers of
Quarry Bank, L. Rogers of Riverside, L. Roper, L. Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. Sharman, L. Shutt of Greetland, L Simon, V.
Taverne, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Thomas of
Walliswood, B. Thornton, B. Tomlinson, L. Tordoff, L. Turnberg, L. Turner of
Camden, B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Warner, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Watson
of Richmond, L. Whitty, L. Wigoder, L. Wilkins, B. Williams of Mostyn, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the negative, and Motion disagreed to accordingly.